12 cm WW1 german navy shell ???

[Nolfster]

Hello,

some while ago I purchased this shell from an auction.
I've been looking everywhere for information, but can't find anything.
The fuse is german navy (Marinekorps Flandern) for sure, Gr. Z. 16 or 18 if I'm not mistaken.

Height with fuse : 39,5 cm

Height without fuse : 33 cm

drivingband has 32 lines. and is 2 cm wide. it is positioned at 1,5 cm from the bottom of the shell

calibre beneath drivingband : 122mm

the bottom has 2 holes it it, as said by another member this was for screwing out the bottom.

The fuse thread is 5 cm across, the total height of the fuse is 7,5 cm. It has no markings.

The item shown is empty/inert.
Any ideas??? Thanks a lot!

 

[al'saad]

I have bottom of such shell which was found near sunken Austro-Hungarian river monitor ex-Koros in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I never knew what type of shell it was from.

 

[doctor]

Hi
This shell is notified as 12.5cm Spgr L/3 (Dz) with fuze Dopp Z S 43 or GR Z16
The fuze of my shell is an other type just stamped 12.5cm

 

[Nolfster]

hi doctor, thank you very much! do you have a photo of your shell? so my fuse should be a gr z 16 I guess?
do you have the cartridge that fits with it also?

regards, wouter

 

[doctor]

Hi
Here my shell in bad repainted condition but no rust that i've since 25 years now
I think there is no case for, no found in data about the propelling charge
Your fuze look Kz f Spgr mK with different noze and not Gr Z16

 

[Alpini]

Nolfsters fuze is a "E. Kzdr. f. Spgr." = "Empfindlicher Kopfznder fr Sprenggranaten" ~ sensitive head fuze for HE shells. This fuze is from after 1st WW and the shell is from 1st WW (Krupp) so it doesn't belong together. Doctors shell has the right fuze, it should be a Dopp.Z. S/43 (isn't it?)

There was a 12,5 cm Ringkanone made by Krupp for Naval use. May be the shell is for such a gun.

 

[doctor]

Hi
Yes, the time ring fuze is graduated 43 and i think it's primitive all brass Dopp z s 43 without stamped name and just 12.5 cm
Yes shell used since ww1 only i think and don't see it in ww2 datas

 

[Nolfster]

Guys,

sorry I haven't answered earlier, my mistake..
Thanks for the info Alpini, not so fun to hear the fuse isn't ww1...
I do am glad that the shell is ww1, I didn't find anything before doctor answered...
If anyone reading or following this post ever comes across a navy fuse Dopp Z s43 or Gr Z16,
be sure to let me know!

kind regards,
thanks,
Nolfster

 

[Yodamaster]

Wrong idea

Nolfsters fuze is a "E. Kzdr. f. Spgr." = "Empfindlicher Kopfznder fr Sprenggranaten" ~ sensitive head fuze for HE shells. This fuze is from after 1st WW and the shell is from 1st WW (Krupp) so it doesn't belong together. Doctors shell has the right fuze, it should be a Dopp.Z. S/43 (isn't it?)

There was a 12,5 cm Ringkanone made by Krupp for Naval use. May be the shell is for such a gun.

Thinking that a fuze, born after WW I can't be place on a WW I projectile is wrong !
I've found in Belgium an 15 cm Gr 96 (WW I) equipped with AZ 1 (WW II) !!!

Sorry for the bad quality of the pictures but you may be sure of the identification !



Yoda

 

[Alpini]

Hi Yoda,

you are absolutely right that in some cases old ammunition was equipped with modern fuzes and re-used at a later time. In germany this happened mostly with some types of naval ammunition. But in the case of exactly this 12,5 cm it is impossible. These 12,5 cm guns with bag charges where obsolete long before 1st WW and just some few guns where used in WW1 as they needed to use "anything available".

But what makes you sure you have a 15 cm Gr.96? In my eyes it is a very normal 15 cm I.Gr. 38 which could be equipped with the short A.Z.1 according to the ammunition manuals. The length (without fuze) of a 15 cm Gr.96 and the 15 cm I.Gr. has only 1 mm difference. But the 15 cm Gr.96 has a 45 mm fuze thread (66 mm fuze diameter), the A.Z.1 needs a M50x3 thread with 60 mm fuze diameter. To convert a 15 cm Gr.96 with a thread for the smaller fuze diameter the shell must have been lengthened or the whole ogive reshaped with a new (smaller, more pointed) shape.

The production of the 15 cm Gr.96 stopped in 1902 with introduction of the "Granatfllung 02" = TNT (introduction of the 15 cm Gr. 02), the older shells got used up on german firing ranges for target practise and many other remaining shells in the first years of WW1. (Source: Report of the german "WuMBA" (Waffen und Munitions Beschaffungs Amt) which was the responsible office for designing ordering and testing all types of ordnance just until the End of WW1)

The material of the 15 cm Gr.96 was cast iron which is very resistant to rust (in most cases no deep rust pits). Your shell shows typical deep rust pits for a steel shell which was on the surface for some years. If it is not already blown, just count the grooves in the driving band - that's in many cases a very easy method to distinguish the type of the gun and thereby the type of the shell

 

[doctor]

Hi
My documentation say that shell 15 cmGr96 is in steel
I've one with Gr Z 96/04 fuze (45 mm thread) and body shell with rust pits
I also think it's impossible to have A.Z.1 on

 

[Yodamaster]

On the pictures or drawing of the 15 cm I Gr we have, there is a sort bead (translator used ! ) above the driving band, this was not apparent on my shell.
Sorry Alpini, but a fired shell equipped with AZ 1, we blow it up on the spot ! We don't transport him on long distances and so we don't must manipulate it too much !



Yoda

 

[Alpini]

@Yoda: Yes I thought, that you have already blown this rusty piece. To risky, and to heavy Not sure what you mean with bead? If you mean the larger diameter area above the driving band, it is only a minor diameter difference which would not be longer visible in such a bad condition. On the drawings such areas are mostly a little bit exaggerated to make them visible.

@Doctor, you are right about steel - my failure! I just thought because the F.Gr. 96 has some ribs inside. But these ribs could have been also machined by forging a steel bar over a mandrel which has the inner shape of the shell. This would explain the deep rust pits on your example. Cast iron is not always better rust resistant, but very often...

This shoud be the shell: (or the type with base screw)