105 MM How Heat M67

[flak18]

A question concerning the above which I feel will mostly only be answerable by our colleagues from the US.
The M67 was originally a fixed, non charge adjustable round that used the Type II cartridge case with crimps to secure the projectile in the mouth of the case. This information from various manuals. Then it all changed and it became a semi fixed round using Type I cases as did all the other projectile types. I have some cases in my collection that have the II of Type II barred out and a I substituted, so making it a Type I case....but there are no crimps on the cases.
My question is....does anyone out there actually have a Type II case with crimp marks still present.
There is massive confusion in the manuals, the wording describing the M67 states they are semi fixed but the diagram clearly shows crimps. A footnote states that the charge is non adjustable....
I have 2 M67 projectiles in my collection. A WW2 one obtained in Normandy has a groove for a case to be crimped into as well as the normal groove just below the driving band for the driving band to set back into.
A second projectile is a post war German 105mm How H/l M67 without the crimp groove but still with the set back groove below the driving band.
Thank you for an help to clarify this. Sorry to be so esoteric, I just need to know....PLEASE

 

[M8owner]

Here is the original post on this item plus a few photos of the Type II case - no crimp marks. I do not know if this really answers the question as this was made as an inert loaded round for training.

US WWII 105mm 1943 Dated M67 HEAT Projectile

Here is something new for my collection. I have never seen one before, and I believe I have seen a post here where one of our European members has been on the hunt for this item for many years. It arrived in the proper tootsie roll labeled for an M67 round. It did not come with a Type II casing...

www.bocn.co.uk

 

[flak18]

Hi
Thank you for your interest. It's something that has bothered me for years.
The Type II case that you have with the projectile now as shown in your photo....if you look closely there is a small X above the II and then a single I to signify change. But no crimp grooves are evident. I start to doubt if the manuals which show crimp grooves are at all accurate. I have handled so many 105 cases over the years and have yet to see one with crimps.
I know a fixed round existed because I have seen quoted a tube in black cardboard M 108 for the fixed round, before the days when the round came with the projectile nose first in the cart case or before projectile and case came in separate tubes.
Sorry if I go on and I know it's getting a bit " complex" and nerdy now.
Thanks again

 

[jeff w]

A question concerning the above which I feel will mostly only be answerable by our colleagues from the US.
The M67 was originally a fixed, non charge adjustable round that used the Type II cartridge case with crimps to secure the projectile in the mouth of the case. This information from various manuals. Then it all changed and it became a semi fixed round using Type I cases as did all the other projectile types. I have some cases in my collection that have the II of Type II barred out and a I substituted, so making it a Type I case....but there are no crimps on the cases.
My question is....does anyone out there actually have a Type II case with crimp marks still present.
There is massive confusion in the manuals, the wording describing the M67 states they are semi fixed but the diagram clearly shows crimps. A footnote states that the charge is non adjustable....
I have 2 M67 projectiles in my collection. A WW2 one obtained in Normandy has a groove for a case to be crimped into as well as the normal groove just below the driving band for the driving band to set back into.
A second projectile is a post war German 105mm How H/l M67 without the crimp groove but still with the set back groove below the driving band.
Thank you for an help to clarify this. Sorry to be so esoteric, I just need to know....PLEASE

Crimped Type II M14 cases did exist. The initial M67 has a groove for it, therefore those initial cases for it were crimped.
Ordnance called for the elimination of the crimping groove on the M67 I believe in the fall of 1942. Your grooved M67 is probably dated 1942 ( a photo showing the lot number and date would be awesome!).
The elimination of the groove will correspond with the change to the drawings for the M14 cartridge case eliminating the Type II designation (if anyone has the wartime M14 cartridge case drawing it will show the exact date).
Cases already manufactured that were marked "Type II" were modified and went back into the pool of cases for use at any loading plant with any projectile type, easing the strain on logistics that having 2 different case types caused.
That being said, crimped M14 cases will be pretty rare. Oldsmobile was one of the first producers of M67 and they didn't get started until May of 1942. They probably eliminated the groove in the fall. Thats a pretty short run of crimped M67 rounds with Type II cases.

 

[flak18]

Crimped Type II M14 cases did exist. The initial M67 has a groove for it, therefore those initial cases for it were crimped.
Ordnance called for the elimination of the crimping groove on the M67 I believe in the fall of 1942. Your grooved M67 is probably dated 1942 ( a photo showing the lot number and date would be awesome!).
The elimination of the groove will correspond with the change to the drawings for the M14 cartridge case eliminating the Type II designation (if anyone has the wartime M14 cartridge case drawing it will show the exact date).
Cases already manufactured that were marked "Type II" were modified and went back into the pool of cases for use at any loading plant with any projectile type, easing the strain on logistics that having 2 different case types caused.
That being said, crimped M14 cases will be pretty rare. Oldsmobile was one of the first producers of M67 and they didn't get started until May of 1942. They probably eliminated the groove in the fall. Thats a pretty short run of crimped M67 rounds with Type II cases.

Hello
Thank you for your reply, you have clarified this matter for me very nicely indeed. My projectile is, as I said, from Normandy and is one that was found by a farmer with a lot of others that were apparently just abandoned. He had no others by the time I got to him so I had no choice as to condition.
The projectile is pitted and only parts of the stamping are visible and legible. I can see 105mm M 67 and the word LOT, a couple of 4's but not enough to make it worthwhile. Of note however is the M62 fuze which is dated 7/42 which fits very nicely into your calculations.
I have a US manual dated 1948 which shows crimping grooves on the case but I can understand that this was just carried over....the body of the text lists the M67 as a semi fixed round which fits into the whole scenario well.
I am most grateful to you for this explanation. A crimped case will always be on my wants list, as is a yellow painted 105mm How HE projectile.
If you need any more info please feel free to PM me. I am not too good with computers but I can always send photos by email.
Again, thank you both for our input....what a marvellous site this is. It never ceases to amaze me.

 

[jeff w]

My apologies - but I believe the crimping groove on the M67 was eliminated in production in the fall of 1944 not 1942.
I must have been looking at the (wrong) drawing - the drawing for the M1 105 shell has the revision date of September 1942.
If you google "Ordnance Ammunition Drawings 1949 Book 4" you can find the drawings.
I will be at the National Archives in September and will see if I can nail down the exact dates they stopped crimping the cases.

 

[flak18]

My apologies - but I believe the crimping groove on the M67 was eliminated in production in the fall of 1944 not 1942.
I must have been looking at the (wrong) drawing - the drawing for the M1 105 shell has the revision date of September 1942.
If you google "Ordnance Ammunition Drawings 1949 Book 4" you can find the drawings.
I will be at the National Archives in September and will see if I can nail down the exact dates they stopped crimping the cases.

Hello Jeff
It makes sense to just use up the grooved projectiles. Good luck in September.
One day..... I will find a crimped case.......maybe.
Thanks again for all your input.