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1 inch aiming rifle
- Thread starter 2pounder
- Start date
1in headstamps
Thought some might be hard to read, tricky to photo them all well, so here they are;
Electric, M VM, B VM, E C I, B C I,
Percusion, E C I, E C I (smaller font), E C II (also on primer), B C I overstamped VSM N /l\N R/l\L III and JK in a diamond the B VSM diamond I being barred out, B C I barred out overstamped R/l\L N III, 3 off V.S.M stamped differently.
My personal favourites are the ones that show some history. 2pr
Thought some might be hard to read, tricky to photo them all well, so here they are;
Electric, M VM, B VM, E C I, B C I,
Percusion, E C I, E C I (smaller font), E C II (also on primer), B C I overstamped VSM N /l\N R/l\L III and JK in a diamond the B VSM diamond I being barred out, B C I barred out overstamped R/l\L N III, 3 off V.S.M stamped differently.
My personal favourites are the ones that show some history. 2pr
Chris 42 RQ
Well-Known Member
Nice items !
Some nice items there 2 Pounder, I see you even have a fired Bullet from one, rather a rare item I would think !
Some nice items there 2 Pounder, I see you even have a fired Bullet from one, rather a rare item I would think !
Falcon
Well-Known Member
Nice selection. Another couple I have seen that you need are "M IVM" and "K.N.M.Co. IV KN"
Chris, there seems to be alot of the fired bullets around recently, they appear to have come out of the sea. Someone must have dredged up a load off an old naval gunnery range. I was told they had come out of the Thames estuary.
Chris, there seems to be alot of the fired bullets around recently, they appear to have come out of the sea. Someone must have dredged up a load off an old naval gunnery range. I was told they had come out of the Thames estuary.
I have a couple of these cases that you can add to your collection 2pr.
Both are the electric version and the headstamps are different to those you already have.One has M.T Co at the top and IV at the bottom,made
by the Morris Aiming Tube Company of Dagenham (Thanks to Falcon for info on this).The other one just has IV M on the bottom,and though not misshapen this one does have a couple of splits in it,seems to be very thin gauge brass.If you'd like these,let me know where to send them,and I'll pop 'em in the post.
Both are the electric version and the headstamps are different to those you already have.One has M.T Co at the top and IV at the bottom,made
by the Morris Aiming Tube Company of Dagenham (Thanks to Falcon for info on this).The other one just has IV M on the bottom,and though not misshapen this one does have a couple of splits in it,seems to be very thin gauge brass.If you'd like these,let me know where to send them,and I'll pop 'em in the post.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
1 inch AR
Here are a couple of late(ish) Kynoch drawings from the mid 1920s. One is the Mark I Cordite Electric and the other the percussion version.
Interestingly, I also have Kynoch drawings for the 1 inch Nordenfelt from the same period, and this was for an order from Armstrong Whitworth. I have no idea which country was still using Nordenfelts at that date, but unfortunately the Kynoch order number only relates back to A-W and not their customer.
Regards
TonyE
Here are a couple of late(ish) Kynoch drawings from the mid 1920s. One is the Mark I Cordite Electric and the other the percussion version.
Interestingly, I also have Kynoch drawings for the 1 inch Nordenfelt from the same period, and this was for an order from Armstrong Whitworth. I have no idea which country was still using Nordenfelts at that date, but unfortunately the Kynoch order number only relates back to A-W and not their customer.
Regards
TonyE
Attachments
1 inch aiming
Thanks Chris for the cases, Thanks Tony for the drawings, it would be nice to know where various items of strange rounds etc went, I'm sure all the major contractors made special things for abroad but where the records went who knows, probably thrown away when factories moved or closed.
I now have 9 different cases out of (if I've read Peters book correctly) about 36 so plenty to keep me busy and some hope of getting more. 2pr
Thanks Chris for the cases, Thanks Tony for the drawings, it would be nice to know where various items of strange rounds etc went, I'm sure all the major contractors made special things for abroad but where the records went who knows, probably thrown away when factories moved or closed.
I now have 9 different cases out of (if I've read Peters book correctly) about 36 so plenty to keep me busy and some hope of getting more. 2pr
1in HS
There was a maker B&S but I'm not sure who they were, RL did the mkIII C rounds most being converted cases from other makers, dont know for sure if they made their own as well ie virgin cases. I've got a couple of RL IIIs overstamped, but nothing B&S so am interested. What are you into particularly? 2pr
There was a maker B&S but I'm not sure who they were, RL did the mkIII C rounds most being converted cases from other makers, dont know for sure if they made their own as well ie virgin cases. I've got a couple of RL IIIs overstamped, but nothing B&S so am interested. What are you into particularly? 2pr
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Most of the contract records have actually survived. The Kynoch ones are at the Birmingham Proof house, Greenwood & Batley are at the Yorkshire archives, Vickers records are at Cambridge University and I think Kings Norton are at Brimingham library.
I have a lot of the Kynoch drawings, including some rather nice ones for 1" Aiming Rifle rounds for the Greek navy with a special headstamp.
Regards
TonyE
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
B & s
I concur with Tim. Bulpitt and Son were also metal bashers and made millions of .303 chargers and others.
I have a nice B & S made charger for the 7.62 x 54R round marked "B & S I 1917". These were for the Russian contract ammo made in the UK during WWI.
If anyone has any other British made 7.62mm chargers from that period I would be interested to hear.
Regards
TonyE
I concur with Tim. Bulpitt and Son were also metal bashers and made millions of .303 chargers and others.
I have a nice B & S made charger for the 7.62 x 54R round marked "B & S I 1917". These were for the Russian contract ammo made in the UK during WWI.
If anyone has any other British made 7.62mm chargers from that period I would be interested to hear.
Regards
TonyE
hicky1300
Well-Known Member
hi 2pr
Unfortunately this has been bashed about a bit - I think someone tried to trench art it!!
I do pretty much anything from 0 -40mm as I am downsizing & shifting a lot of surplus & 40+ stuff
I have a couple of 1" but am not too worried about keeping this one.
send address & I will pop in a jiffy bag.
I am on the look out for a Vickers (VSM) 37mm case!!!
Rgds
H
Unfortunately this has been bashed about a bit - I think someone tried to trench art it!!
I do pretty much anything from 0 -40mm as I am downsizing & shifting a lot of surplus & 40+ stuff
I have a couple of 1" but am not too worried about keeping this one.
send address & I will pop in a jiffy bag.
I am on the look out for a Vickers (VSM) 37mm case!!!
Rgds
H
Hello Chaps,
Having passed on to 2pr,the two aiming rifle cases that I'd had
for yonks,I didn't think I'd have cause to revisit this thread anytime soon.
One never knows what the postman might have in his sack,however,and
Lo and Behold,this morning,amongst a lot of other goodies,another two
aiming rifle cases,this time with projectiles.
One case is headstamped IV M,the same as one of those previously mentioned,the only difference being,it has 3 grooves around the case about halfway up (?) The other has B C I,at 12,3 and 6 o'clock,the I
being barred through,and R.L and III stamped diagonally.
One of the projectiles is lead,has 3 cannelures and a copper
gas check,stab crimped onto the base,would this have been fitted in either case? The other projectile is something else altogether (I think!) it's brass
and has a steel inner portion,and one cannelure.If I've read other posts on similar topics correctly,this belongs in a Nordenfelt case,which,I think,is headstamped differently.What do these headstamps look like? I take it that
this projectile should not really be in either of the cases it came with?
Having passed on to 2pr,the two aiming rifle cases that I'd had
for yonks,I didn't think I'd have cause to revisit this thread anytime soon.
One never knows what the postman might have in his sack,however,and
Lo and Behold,this morning,amongst a lot of other goodies,another two
aiming rifle cases,this time with projectiles.
One case is headstamped IV M,the same as one of those previously mentioned,the only difference being,it has 3 grooves around the case about halfway up (?) The other has B C I,at 12,3 and 6 o'clock,the I
being barred through,and R.L and III stamped diagonally.
One of the projectiles is lead,has 3 cannelures and a copper
gas check,stab crimped onto the base,would this have been fitted in either case? The other projectile is something else altogether (I think!) it's brass
and has a steel inner portion,and one cannelure.If I've read other posts on similar topics correctly,this belongs in a Nordenfelt case,which,I think,is headstamped differently.What do these headstamps look like? I take it that
this projectile should not really be in either of the cases it came with?
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Aiming Rifle
The case that is headstamped "B C I" is the "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric Cordite Mark I", introduced in June 1913 and which had a screw fit electric primer originally. It has been reloaded at RL Woolwich and converted to either a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric MarkIII" (approved 1935) or a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Percussion MarkIII" (introduced October 1935) The primer will tell you which one it is.
The other case, "IV M" is a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric MarkIV" with the Morris patent primer, introduced in April 1897.
The brass jacketed proj is indeed a Nordenfelt, and belongs to neither case.
Regards
TonyE
The case that is headstamped "B C I" is the "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric Cordite Mark I", introduced in June 1913 and which had a screw fit electric primer originally. It has been reloaded at RL Woolwich and converted to either a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric MarkIII" (approved 1935) or a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Percussion MarkIII" (introduced October 1935) The primer will tell you which one it is.
The other case, "IV M" is a "Cartridge Aiming Rifle 1 inch Electric MarkIV" with the Morris patent primer, introduced in April 1897.
The brass jacketed proj is indeed a Nordenfelt, and belongs to neither case.
Regards
TonyE
Many thanks,Tony,I got the idea from somewhere in previous posts,that
plain lead projectiles were fitted in early rounds.The copper gas check was,I think,a later addition,if that is correct,would the projectile that I have more rightfully belong in the later reloaded case (BCI/RL)? Which I assume then means that I would need a plain lead proj',for the ealier IV M case to conform with original spec.
plain lead projectiles were fitted in early rounds.The copper gas check was,I think,a later addition,if that is correct,would the projectile that I have more rightfully belong in the later reloaded case (BCI/RL)? Which I assume then means that I would need a plain lead proj',for the ealier IV M case to conform with original spec.
1 inch aiming
Without checking I'm sure the copper gas check was introduced along with cordite as a propellant ie a case with C on the base has a gas check lead bullet. The steel or iron with brass jacket or copper plating is for the machine gun as it was intended to penetrate the boilers on motor torpedo boats as they were the big threat. They come with different ogive radii to the point latest being most streamlined. Head stamp has typically the year, makers initials and mk no. where as aiming does not have the year. 2pr
Without checking I'm sure the copper gas check was introduced along with cordite as a propellant ie a case with C on the base has a gas check lead bullet. The steel or iron with brass jacket or copper plating is for the machine gun as it was intended to penetrate the boilers on motor torpedo boats as they were the big threat. They come with different ogive radii to the point latest being most streamlined. Head stamp has typically the year, makers initials and mk no. where as aiming does not have the year. 2pr
Thanks a lot Clive,I didn't think that I'd ever be seeking info on these particular rounds,one never knows,of course.
Sounds as if the lead/copper proj' belongs in the R,L III overstamped case right enough,it surely would have had cordite propellant at that date.
I don't suppose I could trade you something for one of your plain lead projectiles? I'd have a pair then,and if I could find a dated Nordenfelt case,
and put it in the middle,I could have an even nicer trio.
Regards Chris.
Sounds as if the lead/copper proj' belongs in the R,L III overstamped case right enough,it surely would have had cordite propellant at that date.
I don't suppose I could trade you something for one of your plain lead projectiles? I'd have a pair then,and if I could find a dated Nordenfelt case,
and put it in the middle,I could have an even nicer trio.
Regards Chris.
I have some 1" Nordenfeldt/Aiming rifle cartridges.
Since the thread started and the last post, further information is available in the recently uploaded Treatises on Ammunition 1887, 1902 Chapter XXL and 1915 Paras 527 - 551.
I can say that B & S Ltd is Bulpitt and Sons. They were taken over in 1961 by BTR (Housewares) Ltd. They gave us the Bulpitt cylinder which is used for packing bulk artillery fuzes. Their original business was brass fittings and lamps, which fits in nicely with their closure coming as they nearly reached 100 years. When that business waned they went in for aluminium extrusions, hence the Bulpitt cylinder.
Along with my cartridges I include a drawing of an Elswick 1 inch aiming rifle. You will see that the projectile in the breech appears to be a 1 inch steel cased Nordenfeldt cartridge which shows a transition phase before the lead projectiles began.
I have also included a Royal Laboratories, Plate No 190 of May 1889, showing a Mk V 1" Nordenfeldt. All 4 of my projectiles are steel Nordenfeldts.
The one fixed in the Mk IV case has a definite 3 CRH. The case is a Mk IV Morris, with an ebonite ring, but undated. Therefore aiming rifle, probably transitional.
The unsheathed proj has the spin imparting grooves and you can see where the sheath came up to.
Both of the other proj have traces of base markings which have been deliberately defaced. The brassy looking one has a broad arrow in the middle.
One case has a small cap and is definitely Nordenfeldt MG and has three punch stabs only.
The other is an 1887 Mark 1, RL manufacture aiming rifle cartridge case, but reworked to Mark III, for practice use only. Whether the original case was subbed out to B & S or whether it was sent there for rework is unknown to me.The case shows the original 3 punch stabs and another three for the rework. There is also a cannelure. The N is covering what appears to be FJ with a digit 2 underneath. There is a letter C.
Also included is a 1945 plate showing the cartridge by that time and the modern percussion base.
Since the thread started and the last post, further information is available in the recently uploaded Treatises on Ammunition 1887, 1902 Chapter XXL and 1915 Paras 527 - 551.
I can say that B & S Ltd is Bulpitt and Sons. They were taken over in 1961 by BTR (Housewares) Ltd. They gave us the Bulpitt cylinder which is used for packing bulk artillery fuzes. Their original business was brass fittings and lamps, which fits in nicely with their closure coming as they nearly reached 100 years. When that business waned they went in for aluminium extrusions, hence the Bulpitt cylinder.
Along with my cartridges I include a drawing of an Elswick 1 inch aiming rifle. You will see that the projectile in the breech appears to be a 1 inch steel cased Nordenfeldt cartridge which shows a transition phase before the lead projectiles began.
I have also included a Royal Laboratories, Plate No 190 of May 1889, showing a Mk V 1" Nordenfeldt. All 4 of my projectiles are steel Nordenfeldts.
The one fixed in the Mk IV case has a definite 3 CRH. The case is a Mk IV Morris, with an ebonite ring, but undated. Therefore aiming rifle, probably transitional.
The unsheathed proj has the spin imparting grooves and you can see where the sheath came up to.
Both of the other proj have traces of base markings which have been deliberately defaced. The brassy looking one has a broad arrow in the middle.
One case has a small cap and is definitely Nordenfeldt MG and has three punch stabs only.
The other is an 1887 Mark 1, RL manufacture aiming rifle cartridge case, but reworked to Mark III, for practice use only. Whether the original case was subbed out to B & S or whether it was sent there for rework is unknown to me.The case shows the original 3 punch stabs and another three for the rework. There is also a cannelure. The N is covering what appears to be FJ with a digit 2 underneath. There is a letter C.
Also included is a 1945 plate showing the cartridge by that time and the modern percussion base.
