French Tank And AT Rounds From WWII.

Grenademan2005 · Feb 28, 2010

Hey:
I restart here a thread for this with other members pics and info from another threads with wrong sections or titles. From member Richard B first pic and info and from Caracal second pic and headstamps.

1. 37x94R 37mm Mle 1916/1918
----In German Use - Munition der 3,7cm Kw.K 144 / Pzgr. Patr. 148 (f)

2. 37x149R 37mm Mle 1938
3. 37x149R 37mm Mle 1938 -
----In German Use - Munition der 3,7cm Kw.K 143 / Sprgr. Patr. 145 (f)

4. 47x193R 47mm Mle 1935
----French Description - Cartouche a Boulet Perforant Mle35
----In German Use - Munition der 4,7cm Kw.K 173 / Pzgr. Patr. 176 (f)
5. 47x139R 47mm Mle 1934

6. 47x193R 47mm Mle 1935
----French Description - Cartouche a Obus Explosif Mle38
----In German Use - Munition der 4,7cm Kw.K 173 / Sprgr. Patr. 175 (f)

7. 47x380R 47mm Mle 1937 - Cartouche a Obus de Rupture Mle38
8. 47x380R 47mm Mle 1937 - Cartouche a Perforant avec Fausse-Ogive,Taceur Mle1938

9. 75x247R 75mm SA-35 (Char B Hull mounted gun - 75mm L/17)
---- French Desription - Cartouche a Obus Explosif M1910
----In German Use - Munition der 7,5cm Kw.K 251 / Sprgr. Patr. 231 (f)

10. 105mm Mle 36 HE (105x245R)
---- French Description - Canon de 105 L modle 1936 Schneider
---- In German Use - 10,5 cm schwere Kanone 332(f)

headstamps of 25x163 (AA), 25x193 (AT), 37x149 (Tank), 37x218 (naval), 37x277 (naval), 47x193(Tank) and 47x380 (AT)

Grenademan2005 · Feb 28, 2010

I feel the French Tank and AT rounds a forgotten field on the WWII ordnance collecting, for this I ask to all members who can contribute with pics of his own rounds or info or wartime pics, manuals, etc, or something related with this interesting field to post their pics and info in this thread.
I WANT YOU! For the Forum Army.
Yes, French Tank Rounds is a semiforgotten field because France lost the war ver fast, but we cant forget that France is a great country with a lot of history and, very important, Germans used these rounds when captured them. So, I believe that it is very important for future references ask, (again), to all members who have in their collections these rounds for post pics of them. And if have more info or wartime photos post them too, of course. I hope to see many pics, but not only from the round, but detailed pics of markings of case bases and shells.

RichardB · Mar 1, 2010

I agree with Miguel (unsurprisingly!), like some Russian rounds, there were alot re-used by the Germans in WW2, and I would love to see some more from other peoples collections. Especially if they are German stamped

However, in my photo of the 10 rounds stood on end, the 5th item from the left is actually a Belgian 47mm HE from from the Canon de 47 Antichars SA-FRC. It is also in the wrong case. (I do however have a correct case and may start a separate Belgian WW2 ordnance thread...not sure how long it will be!!)

PLEASE lets see what French rounds there are out there. :xd:

Also, if you care to look at my Gallery, you'll find approximate 10 photographs of the AFVs that used these rounds in Saumur Tank Museum. (Select ----> Gallery - Member's Gallerys - R (for RichardB) - Saumur Tank Museum)

Rich

GFUNK · Mar 1, 2010

Hi everyone

I've just started collecting and my first purchase is this 4.7 cm mle 1935 Round. It is of particular interest as I live in Guernsey and during the occupation Panzer Abteilung (tank battalion) 213 was stationed in the Channel Islands. In total, 17 Char Bs were sent to Jersey and 19 here in Guernsey, these were predominantly the standard PzKpfwagen Char B1 Bis (f) in addition to this there were the converted flamethrower type Char B1 Bis, designated PzKpfwagen B1 Bis mit Flammenwerfer (f). Other French tanks sent to the channel islands included:

Renault FT17/18 light tank

4.7cm Pak 36 (t) auf GW Renault R35 (f) (that is, 4.7cm Czech anti-tank gun mounted on Renault R35 Chassis.

RichardB · Mar 1, 2010

Hi Gfunk, great round, I do like these!....and great information on the Channel Islands occupation. Come to think of it, beleive the Char B1 bis in Bovington is from the Channel islands. (not sure which island mind!)

Ill try to take some pictures of the headstamps of my rounds tonight...assuming I remember.

Rich

RichardB · Mar 1, 2010

Here are the headstamps of the rounds in the photo.

1. 37x94R 37mm Mle 1916/1918

2. 37x149R 37mm Mle 1938

3. 37x149R 37mm Mle 1938

4. 47x193R 47mm Mle 1935

5. 47x280R (Correct Case) - Canon de 47 Antichars SA-FRC. - See future Belgian thread

6. 47x193R 47mm Mle 1935

7. 47x380R 47mm Mle 1937 - Cartouche a Obus de Rupture Mle38

8. 47x380R 47mm Mle 1937 - Cartouche a Perforant avec Fausse-Ogive,Taceur Mle1938

9. 75x247R 75mm SA-35 (Char B Hull mounted gun - 75mm L/17)

If anyone wants to decrypt the markings on these case, I'd certainly appreciate it.!!

Cheers, Rich

GFUNK · Mar 2, 2010

Hi Guys

Very interesting, I don't suppose anyone has a 'spare' 75x247R 75mm SA-35 they'd be willing to sell me?!

And yes Rich, the Char B Bis at Bovington was originally from Jersey.

Regards, Grant

RichardB · Mar 2, 2010

Grant,
Its a strange one, I can't honestly believe the Char B1 75mm case is that rare, but from what I've been told they certainly aren't common. Its the only one I've seen, and I know nobody else that has one. (Although Ben and a few others surely must have them)

I paid a fair bit for this one, and WOULD pay just as much again or more for another case, esp if it had the APHE projectile.

By the way, the case lenght is 241mm, I think I wrote down 7 as it looks alot like a 1 in french drawings.
Here are the drawings of the two rounds. (In German use)

75mm APHE - Obus de rupture Mle1910M

75mm HE - Obus Explosif Mle1910

Hope this helps
Rich

Caracal · Mar 2, 2010

Hello Richard

i will make some researches about your #7 and #9.

The #7 is a good french 47x380 but is not the AT Mle 37... as we see the "02" just after "47", it is sure that this 47mm is the french naval Mle 1902. So you will have to find the projectile for it!

The #9 , i will ask help for identification

From my side, here is the detail picture of the 47mm AT projectile without his magnesium ballistic cap (french gunners often use the munition without the ballstic cap because the white tracer line due to the rubbing with the air showed the position of the gun) and dated 1940, and an explosiv 25mm Mle 1938 for the Anti Aircraft gun.

RichardB · Mar 2, 2010

Hi Caracal

So the 02 represents the year....1902, but how do you know its naval??
As for finding a projectile, it sounds more like I need to sell the case and find a new one...I only collect tank and anti-tank! :xd:

Please let me know about #7 as Id be keen to find a APHE Mle 1910 projectile and case.

Really appreciate you help

Rich

Caracal · Mar 3, 2010

RichardB said:
Hi Caracal

So the 02 represents the year....1902, but how do you know its naval??

because there is a 47x380 named 47mm Mle 1902 and it is a for a naval gun :tinysmile_classes_t , and the AT 47 Mle 1937 has been created from this naval munition

the headstamp of the AT Mle 1937 is not like this one, look at your other case which is the AT one.

best regards

Grenademan2005 · Mar 20, 2010

Here is a 25mm Hotchkiss AT long case, BUT, can any of you tell me why it has a non primered base? :hmmmm:

Gspragge · Mar 20, 2010

1940 list

This might help

Kindly sent to me by another BOCN member last year.

Caracal · Mar 20, 2010

Is it yours? on a french forum we have already talked about it, no one knows what it is, we guess it's a factory error, or an inerte "manipulation" version. But nothing sure

Grenademan2005 · Mar 20, 2010

Yes, of course, it is in my collection. I have sent the pics to another BOCN member, Doctor, by email, but as he doesnt answer me I decided to post pics here. I bet myself for a manipulation cartridge too.

Gspragge · Mar 20, 2010

Do you mean a Drill casing ?

Those usually have some kind of dud primer, this case has a P (meaning?) stamped on it so it's no accident. If a casing that failed inspection during manufacture it would likely have been scrapped.

Caracal · Mar 21, 2010

Well the central part has been obviously added after the rest of the case. That's why we thought about the possibility of a case wrong made and transformed in a manipulation one.

One thing is sure: the projectile can't be placed on this case, because this cartridge can't have been fired.

You could post a topic on the www.municion.org forum (it is spanish) :tongue:

Grenademan2005 · Mar 21, 2010

Two pics more for you of the inside. Left non primer case, right a standard case with primer. Feel free on use them for post at the French forum if you want, I have no problem. I bought this round at a French fair near Strasbourg past year, shell and case together.

Caracal · Mar 23, 2010

Grenademan2005 said:
Here is a 25mm Hotchkiss AT long case, BUT, can any of you tell me why it has a non primered base? :hmmmm:

i have asked a great french collector, and regarding to the state of the back and the fact that no projectile have ever been set on the case (look here is no mark on the top, the 25mm Hotchkiss has hard marks when the projectile is placed on it) , for him the case is an unfinished one! i think you have your ID !

best regards

Caracal · Mar 23, 2010

Here is a not common version of the 25mm, armour-piercing with a green tracer. Case dated 1939

French Tank And AT Rounds From WWII.

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